Pro rege et patria.. older crest

[misscameron]

does anyone know anything about a Cameron crest whos saying was "pro rege et patria" My father has a crest and a few books but i was wondering the history of this clan

[Cameronian]

Well I must not speak with any authority upon this, however I do have two Clan badges showing the old Crest with the motto "pro rege et patria" (For king and country ) both over 100 years old, and I would suspect that as the motto reads 'rege' rather that 'Regina' the motto and Clan Badge were changed somewhere around the time of the Coronation of Queen Victoria 28 June 1838, unless it mischievously refers back to The Old Pretender? <grin>

[Cameronian]

Surprising what a Clan Crest can reveal

I needed to check a reference in John Stewart of Ardvorich’s “The Camerons”, and in doing so checked the Clan Crest as mentioned there:

“Until 1745 the Crest was Arm holding a sword with the motto ‘Pro Rege et Patria’. By 1745 ‘the Gentle Lochiel’ was using a Crest consisting of Five Arrows, proper, banded gules, with the Motto ‘Unite’ for his pistol and snuff mull bear that crest”.

So, more interesting insight into Clan History. We could possibly assume from this, that Gentle Lochiel had come to terms with the Hanoverian Dynasty, given up hope of the Stuarts being returned to the Throne, and if this was the case, he would not then pledge himself to the then present King nor the Country he ruled, instead he symbolically chose to record the Cadet lines in the Crest and put his full faith in his United Clan.

This could possibly explain his reluctance to support the ’45, for with his father John (Lochiel XVlll) and his Uncle Allan (the Jacobite Agent) living as part of the Jacobite Court in France for he would have been kept up to the minute with events there.

I had long thought that Pro Rege et Patria, proclaimed his loyalty and zeal for ‘the Stuarts’, sadly I now know that by ’45 that hope was lost.

[SherbrookeJacobite]

That is very interesting Val. However, I would interpret it differently. I don't think Lochiel's loyalty to the Stuarts ever wavered. His reluctance to support the Prince was not due to any lack of loyalty or acceptance of the Hanoverians - he was concerned that the Prince had come without the necessary (and promised) support required for the undertaking.

I think you hit upon a possible reason he changed the crest - he did not want anyone to suppose that he or his Clan supported the Hanoverian "King" who then sat upon Great Britain's throne. The previous crest could also have been seen as provocative, during a time when it could be very dangerous to be seen as a Jacobite.

King James' supporters had to walk a fine line between support for the King, and living in a Hanoverian Kingdom. The Jacobites were convinced of the rightness of their cause - but they had to wait until they were in a position of strength to openly declare their loyalty. Hence, the secret portraits, the passing of a glass over a glass of water during a toast to the King. These things were not done because of an acceptance of the Hanoverian, but because they were vulnerable.

Lochiel's knowledge of the Jacobite Court provides a direct explanation for his attempts to talk the young Prince out of the rising. King James was not in favour the continuation of his son's attempt to regain his throne. He, and many of his advisors were waiting for the French to step up, with their promises of men, arms, and money. It was the timing they opposed, not the right of the King to regain what was his.

I think Lochiel, and his Clan demonstrated their loyalty during (and after) the '45. Their "hope" was not lost until well into 1746, or possibly even after that. For months after Culloden, the Jacobite leaders assumed they would regroup, the French would come through, and the Stuarts would again resume their rightful place. (See the Muirlaggan Resolution in our online archives www.lochiel.net/archives/arch044.html)

[Cameronian]

Possibly not the correct ‘topic centre’ for the discussion on this, but it is interesting to explore what may have occurred to bring about the change in the Clan Crest - John said:

“I don't think Lochiel's loyalty to the Stuarts ever wavered. His reluctance to support the Prince was not due to any lack of loyalty or acceptance of the Hanoverians - he was concerned that the Prince had come without the necessary (and promised) support required for the undertaking”

Given that there were many Camerons at many different times supporting the Jacobite causes

The Battle of Killiecrankie July 27 1689 led by Viscount Dundee

The 1708 attempt by The Old Pretender

The summer of 1715 when the Old Pretender called on The Earl of Mar to raise the Clans and failed (after the loss of many a Highlander’s life) to win the day at Sheriffmuir

The entry of Bonnie PC who in 1744 with the guidance of English Jacobite pilots was to be taken to Essex, in the hope of being joined by supporters, however the storms wrecked the troop and equipment transports, sinking some with the loss of all hands. Charles was officially informed that the invasion had been cancelled and France would give Charles no more support.

Through all of this Jacobite history, the Cameron Crest had never altered, but now, with Fort William commanding a threatening view over Lochaber, the Black Watch regiment created solely to control the Highland Clan, and with his father and Uncle Allan both living within the French Jacobite Court, would Lochiel not know the futility of attempting to restore the Stuarts to the Throne?

History has recorded Lochiel’s reluctance to commit the Clan to the ’45 however prior to this, by changing the Cameron Crest we can see that he could no longer proclaim, “For King and Country”, for this King was now George ll. And regardless of personal zeal, the pragmatism of a leader was surfacing for I suspect that his pragmatism held that truth is modified as discoveries are made and is relative to the time and place and purpose of the issue.

All his worse fears were realised at Culloden, and this is in part, why emotions overwhelm when Tourism and Merchandising are factored into any re-planning of this site

[Cameronian]

I am not satisfied that all the evidence re the point at which this Clan Crest changed has been located as yet, but, before resting it, there is one further point that I should add.

Lochiel’s Banner carried from the field at Culloden by his banner bearer Alexander MacLachlan of Coruanan, (which now hangs at Achnacarry) carries the motto Pro rege et patria, with the dexter arm holding a sword over the Crest Gules, three bars Or, with the two supporters and therefore I now doubt that any change was made to the Clan Crest until later than Culloden.

The actual Letters Patent of the Arms awarded to Lochiel in 1795 carrying only two bars Or, (later corrected to three bars Or) does not carry the dexter arm holding a sword but does carry the word UNITE above the bundle of Five Arrows.

As recorded by Lord Lyon on calf-skin it reads..... (or as much of it as I could determine)
To all and Sundry when this presents do or may concern …… Lyon King of Arms do Hereby Certify that the Ensigns Armorial pertaining and belonging to Donald Cameron of Lochiel said heir of Charles Cameron Esq who is the lawful son and heir of Lochiel the undoubted representative and Chief of the Ancient family of Lochiel and Chief of the Clan Cameron are Matriculated in the Public Registers of Lyon Court and are Blazoned on the margin Bears Gules two bars Or above the shield of is placed a Helment befitting his degree with a mantling Gules the doubling Argent on a wreath of (…?…) Is set for CREST a sheaf of Five Arrows proper tied with a band Gules and in an ….above the Crest this Motto UNITE and on the compartment below the Shield on which are these words Pro Regia et Patria are placed for SUPPORTERS two savages wreathed about their heads and middle with Oak branches proper each holding in his exterior hand a Lochaber Axe of the last. Which Armorial Ensigns above blazoned. We do hereby ratify confirm and assign to the said Donald Cameron Esquire, and the Heirs male of his body as their proper Arms and Bearings in all time coming.
And whereas in the Month of February 1792 Allan Cameron of Erracht, in consequence of a misrepresentation of Facts made to the late Keeper of the Lyon Records, now deceased, found means to obtain a Patent from this Office declaring that the Male representation of the above Family had devolved upon him and assigning to him the Arms of said Family in the Character of the Representative thereof, which Patent though signed and Unduly Impetrated from the said Keeper of The Records was not recorded in the Lyon Register, nor any Fees of Office paid for the same, the Misrepresentation above-mentioned having been previously discovered and the Registration and Receipt of Fees of Course immediately prohibited.
Notwithstanding whereof, and of a formal Intimation and requisition made to the said Allan Cameron on the subject, he, the said Allan Cameron does, as is alleged, still hold and make use of said Patent so improperly obtained as a Legal and Effectual Deed.
Therefore we do not only hereby declare the said Patent to have been, from the Beginning, Ineffectual, Void, and Null as having never been Recorded, but also, and Separately that the said Patent having been obtained upon Misinformation and Misrepresentation as above-mentioned and retained by the said Allan Cameron contrary to good Faith and without Authority from Us, is not and shall not be entitled to any Credit or Authority whatever in judgement or out of the same in all Time Coming, and we appoint this Declaration to be inserted in the Public Records of the Lyon Office along with the Present grant. In Testimony of All which these presents are Subscribed by Robert Boswell Esquire, and the Great Seal of the Lyon Office Appended.
(Signed) RO. BOSWELL,
"Lyon-Dep."

[SherbrookeJacobite]

Thanks for posting that Val. It is very interesting. I guess we may never know the motivation for changing the Crest. We can speculate, and it is certainly interesting to research it and see when it changed. Perhaps it was just a desire on Lochiel's part to recognize the founding families of the Clan - or to have a Crest that was truly his.

If you come across anything else, please share it with us.

Moran taing,

John

[ChrisDoak]

I think that the ambiguity of the motto "For King and Country" would have appealed to Lochiel when it first appeared on his arms.It would be interesting to know on what date it was first used,but presumably it was not too long after John Cameron of Lochiel went into exile in France after the Rebellion of 1715.When the Estate had been so close to being forfeited to the Crown,it would have been prudent in public to acknowledge loyalty to King George,whilst at the same time acknowledging loyalty in private to King James.

I think I am right in assuming that each Lochiel added their own individual tweaks to the Arms/Crest to differentiate themself from their predecessor,and I am wondering if it was definitely the Gentle Lochiel,or his son John in France,who instigated the five arrows motif.Here is some interesting notes from the 1953 book "The Clan Cameron" by Charles Fraser of Reeelig:

"LOCHIEL'S ARMS.

Seals of Camerons in the thirteenth and fifteenth centuries display the "Three Bars" of Lochiel's present shield.In 1678 the seal of Sir Ewan Cameron of Lochiel(1629-1719)has a quarterly coat,viz: (1).a lymphad; (2.)a sinister hand; (3).three bars; (4).a lion rampant.Cresto,motto,and supporters are lacking.His successors have borne on their shields three bars only.For some reason now obscure,the shield recorded for Lochiel in Lyon Register in 1795 had two gold bars instead of three,and this mistaken version has been reproduced in printed books elsewhere.The Register entry was amended to three bars in 1934.There is evidence that at least until 1746 the crest of the "Gentle Lochiel"(1695 - 1748) was an arm holding a sword,with the motto "Pro Rege et Patria".In 1753 his son John used a crest consisting of a sheaf of five arrows,with the motto "Unite".The supporting savages,wreathed with oak and bearing Lochaber axes are on record in 1730."

Just for interest and comparison,the arms of Bishop John Cameron of Glasgow (1424 - 46),as displayed on the Tower of the Bishop's Castle,can be seen at www.theglasgowstory.com.Search under "Bishop Cameron's Arms"

[Nicole (hammyski)]

maybe you could get one made ?? Probably would be costly, but you'd get what you want

[Nicole (hammyski)]

Ello, back at ya and thanks