lauren
Lochaber Ghillie
Posts: 40
|
Post by lauren on Jun 8, 2008 4:20:10 GMT -6
I wonder if this will get me kicked off the boards  Ok...I just wanted to make the point that if Sir Ewen Cameron, 17th Lochiel of Clan Cameron who was himself married to a Campbell, hadn't married his daughter Lucy off to Patrick Campbell the third of Barcaldine I wouldn't be here typing this message. Possibly this was a case of keeping your enemies close...  Also, in the 1830's my Cameron families emigrated to Australia under the bounty scheme to be sheperds on Campbell properties in the new colony. The Campbells made it known that the highland shepherds were the best and that was why they were taking them to the new country. So here's two instances of the Campbells ensuring my viability. They may have done almost everything wrong but they are still a part of my family...So I'd like to think they'd done something right ;D ...Should I leave the board now? |
|
|
|
Post by Thomas Cameron on Jun 8, 2008 8:23:17 GMT -6
Hi Lauren,
No, this will not get you kicked off the boards. If anything, the boards are meant for intelligent and - at times - well meaning "spirited" discussion.
History and the relationship between clans and also within clans is a complicated thing. While there was a great measure of "bad blood" between Camerons and Campbells, that might be said about most clans. Unfortunately, many feel the need to label an entire clan by the actions of their leaders or the majority of their clansfolk. This might very well be the situation with Clan Campbell. However, many realize that Cameron-Campbell marriages did take place, friendships did happen, a few Campbells served in the Jacobite army and that some Campbells settled peaceably in Lochaber. This isn't to say that most present day Camerons have a grat deal of love for the Campbells, but they would be better served focusing on our clan than bashing another group.
I find it increasingly difficult to label any clan with a distinctive moral or ethical judgement, especially given our modern intepretation. A number of clans "historically" dislike the Camerons (Clan Chattan society members still complain that "we" stole "their" lands) and there were very well documented fractures amongst our clan (at various times the MacSorlies, MacGillonies, MacMillans and certainly a number of others - including "Cameron" families such as the Errachts - had issues with one another). No matter how much historical romance we would like to spin today, the fact is that the Highland relationships were complicated and not "cut and dry."
|
|
|
|
Post by ianjonefan on Jun 8, 2008 8:41:31 GMT -6
You are so right! Thomas , I have a friend who's a MACINTOCH !!! , but she's nae waitin' ootside the door wi' a claymohr & dirk . I go by how a individule person acts tword me than blaming the whole for the misdeeds of a few .
|
|
lauren
Lochaber Ghillie
Posts: 40
|
Post by lauren on Jun 8, 2008 21:17:57 GMT -6
Wow I didn't know that Clan Chattan had/has a problem with the Camerons! I'm in no way offended by any of the Campbell bashing that goes on but I didn't realise how common the marriages between us and them were until I started looking through my family tree. I wonder how many other board members have a bit of the dreaded Campbell in their blood  ...And actually, my Campbells weren't very good - One of them, the "red fox" was killed in the Appin murders and while people said he was a decent man he had an awful job and I believe he also fought for the english at Culloden. That didn't go down too well with the old Camerons and apparently he was often heard speaking of his fear of having to visit his mother's lands...The Cameron's really must have been a scary bunch! |
|
|
|
Post by ianjonefan on Jun 8, 2008 22:27:57 GMT -6
Lauren I have both Cambells , & McDonalds in he family . In fact according to a booklet written by my great -great -great ? aunt fhe Campbell branch of my family is through the Campbells of Breadlebane line . So far I've not found any McIntoshes listed in the family tree . I'm still trying to find my Camero Connection to the Camerons of Fassiefern . We do know that we are connected , but don't know what the connection is . Then there's some family papers was held by my great-great aunt that told of a cousin by the name of Charles Cameron who was a Architect for Catherine the Great of Russia . Another broken link in the family . All we do know of him like I said is that there are papers that said he was a cousin , and no other information is available .
|
|
|
|
Post by SherbrookeJacobite on Jun 9, 2008 21:24:20 GMT -6
No, this will not get you kicked off the boards. If anything, the boards are meant for intelligent and - at times - well meaning "spirited" discussion. Tom, I think intelligent might be a bit of a stretch! ;D |
|
|
|
Post by SherbrookeJacobite on Jun 9, 2008 22:12:26 GMT -6
Wow I didn't know that Clan Chattan had/has a problem with the Camerons! I'm in no way offended by any of the Campbell bashing that goes on but I didn't realise how common the marriages between us and them were until I started looking through my family tree. I wonder how many other board members have a bit of the dreaded Campbell in their blood ...And actually, my Campbells weren't very good - One of them, the "red fox" was killed in the Appin murders and while people said he was a decent man he had an awful job and I believe he also fought for the english at Culloden. That didn't go down too well with the old Camerons and apparently he was often heard speaking of his fear of having to visit his mother's lands...The Cameron's really must have been a scary bunch! Hi Lauren, Your comments are not offensive in any way. As Tom so aptly put it - the Clan relationships were very complicated - and there were many marriages between the Cameron's and the (spit) Campbells (sorry, I couldn't help it!). Actually there were a number of Jacobite Campbells who took supported the Prince in the 1745 Rising, including some who lived in Brae Lochaber and followed the Chief of the Keppoch MacDonalds. As with many disputes - the problem was often with the leaders of the Clan - and the Campbells have had their share of despicable leaders. From Archibald Campbell, Marquis of Argyll - who betrayed his King, and abandoned his men in cowardly fashion (twice) when facing a Highland army (including Camerons) under the great James Graham, Marquis of Montrose (interestingly - this Campbell fostered our great Lochiel - Sir Ewen Cameron - his nephew - but it didn't take long for the young Ewen to declare his allegiances once he was out from the Campbell's influence) to Robert Campbell of Glenlyon - who shall go down in infamy as the butcher of Glencoe. Collie Campbell of Glenure, the Red Fox, may have been thought of as a decent man by his own people - but he was none too popular among his mothers people or among our neighbouring Clan, the Stewart's of Appin. As factor over occupied lands for the German-English King collecting rents for lands they had no rights to - he was not a welcome visitor. It is said that on the day he was killed he was to evict Stewart families from Ardsheal and replace them with Campbells. He (Colin Campbell) was the grandson of the aforementioned Sir Ewen Cameron, one of our greatest Chiefs - so that just goes to show how complicated and confusing Clan relationships could be. As for Clan Chatten - although our feud with them was one of the longest and bloodiest in Highland history - it has been long forgiven (although I do have to point out that we won). Also with the Campbells (spit - sorry it's a habit) - the disputes are long past, and although we may hold historical figures in contempt, that in no way reflects upon current members of the Clan. At Highland games here in Alberta, they always seem to set us up beside the Campbells. I don't know if the organizers realize the irony of this - or perhaps they are hoping for some entertainment . I have suggested on several occasions that we attack, but I can never convince my fellow Highland-Prairie members . I don't expect it would be much of a battle - their genetic tendency would be to run at the first sign of an angry Cameron  . Please take my comments in the tongue-in-cheek way they are intended - I really don't hold any grudge against modern Campbells (spit). Slainte, John |
|
lauren
Lochaber Ghillie
Posts: 40
|
Post by lauren on Jun 11, 2008 3:02:25 GMT -6
Hello John, I'm beginning to think I must've got my sense of humour from the Camerons I know you're all just having fun. I just like to try and stir things up sometimes I'm slightly embarrassed that the clan Chattan and Cameron feud was one of the longest and bloodiest in scottish history and I didn't know about it! Every time I log on to these boards I get to have a history lesson! I'm very proud to say that the Sir Ewen Cameron that you spoke of so highly is the ancestor I share in common with the current Lochiel I've noticed you write slainte at the end of your messages - what does it mean? My knowledge of gaelic is sorely lacking... It also hasn't escaped me that you're from Canada - It looks like such a lovely country. I've always wanted to visit. P.s. I love how you can't help but spit at the Campbells! A little unhygienic though... |
|
|
|
Post by ianjonefan on Jun 11, 2008 4:57:06 GMT -6
In that post that said the Camerons , & the Campbells were right next to each other , I was wondering if the orginizer was a Sassenacht , and couldn't tell one clan from another ? ( Hmmm)
|
|
|
|
Post by SherbrookeJacobite on Jun 12, 2008 11:44:35 GMT -6
Hi Lauren,
You should be very proud of being descended from Sir Ewen Cameron. There are great stories about him and his exploits.
I'm glad you took my comments in the way in which they were intended. While I do have strong opinions about historical events, I bear no ill will towards anyone in a modern context - regardless of their surname.
I consider myself very fortunate to live in Canada. It is a beautiful country. We have always felt an affinity with our cousins from 'down under' - I guess because of the similar history of our British Isles immigration, and our ongoing membership in the Commonwealth and sharing the same Queen.
Slainte - literally means "health' - but it is often used, as Sean pointed out, as both a toast and a greeting or a goodbye. An English equivalent would be 'Cheers'. Slainte Mhath means 'good health' and is commonly heard as a toast.
Mar sin leat,
John
|
|
|
|
Post by SherbrookeJacobite on Jun 12, 2008 11:48:42 GMT -6
In that post that said the Camerons , & the Campbells were right next to each other , I was wondering if the orginizer was a Sassenacht , and couldn't tell one clan from another ? ( Hmmm) Hi Jon, While many of the organizers of highland games (at least here in Canada) are mainly concerned with competitive aspects of the games (dancing, piping, and heavy events), and have little knowledge of either Scottish history or Clans, we are working to change that. And despite my earlier comments - which were tongue in cheek - I really have no problem whatsoever being set up next to the Campbells. We were, after all, neighbours in Scotland. Slainte, John |
|
|
|
Post by houndofthearrows on Jun 12, 2008 12:09:11 GMT -6
Hello Jon, & John, & everyone, Every Highland Game / Event that I've either been to or represented those BASTARDS ( sorry my upgrade to your SPIT, John) I mean Campbell's have been beside the Cameron's. I know the obvious reason would be alphabetical order, but Jon's idea of the infamous "Sassenacht" is a valid one as well ;D! Again I know all those Campbells ( and theirs a lot of 'em) are not all bad. Unfortunately they've been responsible for a generous heaping of BAD DEEDS (and that's putting it extremely lightly) and I mean REALLY BAD, enough to dirty the majority of them. BUT, YES their are a FEW that I've known throughout the years and some I'm sure I've yet to meet that are quite all right  ;D! I will not d**n the lot of them for the deeds of A LOT of them  ! I'm also very aware of our Clan marrying some of their Clan (Hey we tried to help them !) . The point has already been brought up ,That when the Clans weren't fighting the English (which they'd rather be doing) they were fighting neighboring Clans or among themselves . The Camerons definitely had their moments. In fact their was a wee bit 'o' strife between the houses of Lochiel and Erracht (Errachts were trying to take the Chiefdom from Lochiel and that caused quite an uproar which I'm sure you can imagine). When Erracht was forming the original 79th many Camerons refused to join their Cameron kin due to this and opted to join the 42nd which was a slap in the face (so to speak) and you know what that meant. All thats changed these days. Heck, a lot of things have changed ! Sir Ewen Cameron indeed was the MAN !!! Any how all this is in good fun (to an extent ;D Yours Aye, Sean |
|
lauren
Lochaber Ghillie
Posts: 40
|
Post by lauren on Jun 12, 2008 17:24:18 GMT -6
It's fascinating how much you guys know about scottish history! All that I know comes from my mum and it's mainly only stories that she's found as she's researched my family tree... How many posts do I have to write before I stop being a new member? I feel a bit jipped having only one star  Slainte! Now I know what that means I'm off to google Mar sin leat - since SOMEBODY (cough cough John) sneakily changed his farewell to confuse me! |
|
|
|
Post by gaelgal on Jun 12, 2008 21:03:45 GMT -6
Let's try to remember this is a family board seen by people all over the world. A little decorum, gentlemen, please. (Spitting and cussing is especially frowned upon. Hence the board's automatic censor.)
As for Campbells vs the rest of the Scottish Highlanders, Lauren, I think some of the blame goes to the song about the Massacre at Glencoe. Though the Campbells were pardoned long ago, their part in misdeeds has left them at the mercy of jokes and comments. Most games set the clan tents up in alphabetical order so Camerons and Campbells are often next to each other. They often march behind us in the parade of tartans too... and in good humor we joke about the need to place our armourers behind us instead of in front as many of the other clans do whilst marching. As long as it's understood that it's done with tongue-in-cheek, good-naturedly, and no offense is intended... but we must watch that the teasing doesn't become tiring or mean.
Thanks for an interesting topic, Lauren! Now, boys, back to your corners and NO MORE Spitting and Cursing! "Mom" has spoken! (she says good-humoredly)
|
|
|
|
Post by ianjonefan on Jun 13, 2008 4:37:55 GMT -6
Aw Ma!!! you wont let us have any fun . Saccoytash !!!! ( when I was younger Saccoytash was a very bad word for me as I did everything I could get out of eating it ) So when you see Saccoytash on the board it's my way of saying @#$%^&"% .
|
|
|
|
Post by ianjonefan on Jun 14, 2008 9:05:12 GMT -6
Just wondering what the Campbells are saying about us on their message board ? Any volunterer that is brave to risk his / her life for the good of trhe clan to find out ? Another thingI'm wondering about is I know Campbell means Crooked Mouth is it because of the shape of their mouth , or is it because you can't believe what they tell you . ( Hmmm )
|
|
|
|
Post by Thomas Cameron on Jun 14, 2008 17:59:24 GMT -6
I think that this specific thread has run its course. Let's more on to other topics at this time.
|
|
.
;D! I will not d**n the lot of them for the deeds of A LOT of them 
! I'm also very aware of our Clan marrying some of their Clan (Hey we tried to help them !) . The point has already been brought up ,That when the Clans weren't fighting the English (which they'd rather be doing) they were fighting neighboring Clans or among themselves . The Camerons definitely had their moments. In fact their was a wee bit 'o' strife between the houses of Lochiel and Erracht (Errachts were trying to take the Chiefdom from Lochiel and that caused quite an uproar which I'm sure you can imagine). When Erracht was forming the original 79th many Camerons refused to join their Cameron kin due to this and opted to join the 42nd which was a slap in the face (so to speak) and you know what that meant. All thats changed these days. Heck, a lot of things have changed ! Sir Ewen Cameron indeed was the MAN !!! Any how all this is in good fun (to an extent 
