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Post by ChrisDoak on Sept 15, 2009 11:00:17 GMT -6
Hi Judy,and Hi John - thanks for clarifying for Judy the old religious thing.Just to add a wee bit extra,and possibly confuse you even more,it is worth mentioning that the Church of England has never had a presence in Scotland,and in England it is also known as the Anglican Church.It is a close relative of the Roman Catholic Church,and in Scotland,the Episcopal Church has an equally close relationship with the Anglican Church.
The Church of England has the monarch as its head of the Church,and along with the Episcopal Church,the usual pomp and ceremony of a hierarchy of Archbishops,Bishops,Deacons,Rectors,and so on.The Established Church of Scotland,as a Presbyterian church,has God as the head of the church,with nobody between him and the members - all,in theory,is very democratic,and everybody is equal.
Historically,at the time of the 1745 Rebellion,the Highlands of Scotland was predominantly Roman Catholic or Episcoplian.The Lowlands was staunchly Presbyterian.With the defeat of the Jacobites at the Battle of Culloden,it was dangerous to continue to practice as a Roman Catholic,and the Established Church of Scotland was shoe-horned in to the parishes of the Highlands to attract the Episcopalians.Generally,the wealthier Cameron families in Lochaber stayed loyal to the Episcopal Church,and were instrumental in financing the building of a church in Fort William at the beginning of the 19th Century.It is likely that the Kinlochleven family contributed towards it.Incidentally,many in Scotland (including some in my family)still refer to the Episcopal Church as "the English Church".
The Regiments garrisonned in Canada in the late 18th Century would have been transported from the United Kingdom in Royal Navy ships - no civilian passengers.When Archibald Fraser Cameron left for Canada in the 1840s,he would likely have sailed on a boat leaving from Greenock on the River Clyde.The ships would routinely sail up the St.Lawrence River,disembarking the passengers at various ports -Quebec City and Montreal for instance.Unfortunately passenger lists were never recorded at the Scottish end,but should the date be discovered when an individual arrived in North America,it is not too difficult to work out which boat they came across on (by consulting the advertisments in the Glasgow Herald newspaper,in particular).
Cheers, Chris.
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Post by jjeonchapman on Sept 15, 2009 21:09:12 GMT -6
Hello John and Chris,
Thank you both for the information regarding churches in Scotland. It does seem that the religion most often mentioned in the Census reports I've found pertaining to Ann Cameron Boyle and Archibald Fraser Cameron mention Church of England as their religion.
Chris, I appreciate the lead regarding which ships Archibald was most likely to have taken, and I hope that I'll be able to find ship lists documenting the immigration of Ann Cameron or Archibald or other members of the family.
John, I shall have to try the Canadian genealogical website you suggested. I have been able to find resources, but have been frustrated because most require payment to see the records; I am reluctant to pay when I'm not sure that the record is even pertinent.
Best regards,
Judy
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Post by jjeonchapman on Sept 29, 2009 14:46:34 GMT -6
Hello All,
I received an email from Ian Caddel who reported that Charles Caddel compared the photos that I sent Ian to those he has of the family from that period. He doesn't think any of them match up. Oh well, their identities remain a mystery.
Chris, anything to report from your research at the various churches near the residence of Archibald Fraser?
Judy
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Post by ChrisDoak on Oct 5, 2009 11:16:40 GMT -6
Hi Judy, Sorry for taking so long to get back to you - I haven't had much connection to a computer recently.
Unfortunate that the Cadell descendants haven't been able to match any of your photographs,but it still doesn't proove that the images are not members of the wider Cadell clan.I checked the 1851 and 1861 Census entries for Cockenzie House,and Mary Cameron is listed as living there in both.With a close connection to the Cadells over 30 years or more,it is likely that the youngsters under her tuition would have maintained contact with her after they reached adulthood - and she in turn would have been equally keen.
I got the opportunity to check out the Birth/Marriage/Death records of the St.John the Evangelist Church - the nearest Episcopal Church to the Archibald Fraser household in Edinburgh (and the most imprtant in the City).Unfortunately I drew a blank,so it is difficult to know where further reasearch would turn up anything on Angus,Christian,or Archibald Fraser Cameron.
That same trip to Edinburgh was a bit more successful,as I consulted the papers relating to the Action that Janet Cameron of Callart took out against Angus Cameron of Kinlochleven in 1788,over a Breach of Promise to marry her,and legitimize the birth of their child.The Action was taken out at the Commissariot of the Presbytery of Edinburgh - a Church of Scotland Court whilch dealt with moral issues,rather than criminal.Actions like this are great for giving information which fleshes out the bones of our knowledge of our ancestors,or though in some cases,they can provide a wee bit too much flesh!
The papers in the National Archives of Scotland (ref.CC8/6/793),set the scenario of the Action first raised on 28 December 1787 by Janet,eldest daughter of John Cameron of Callart (Callart is a neighbouring farm to Kinlochleven) against Ensign Angus Cameron of Kinlochleven,37th Regiment,residing in Edinburgh.The two,who were second cousins,had been at school together,and their grandmothers were cousins (Janet's grandmother was Helen Stewart of Ardshiel,and it is possible that her sister was Una Macdonald's mother).The Estate of Callart had been forfeited to the Crown after the Rebellion of 1745,but in 1784 it had been restored to Janet's father.She claimed,in the documents,that it was well known in the district that she was now due a large financial settlement from her father,and that Ensign Cameron started to pay her frequent visits when he heard about it.
For two years,"the affectionate attentions of Angus were well known".He wanted to marry her,and "as they were husband and wife,more or less,she became pregnant".With the child due to be born in early 1788,Angus had now refused to marry her.Consequently,Janet wished for the Court to declare them man and wife,grant her £100 aliment annually,£50 for the child's clothing and education,and £2000 for Breach of Promise.
Angus's defence was to admit that he had had a fling with Janet,but he denied he had promised to marry her.He could not afford to pay what she had asked for,but was willing to pay something ("he is an Ensign with a moderate income,and she is in very easy circumstances,if not affluent").
As the Case progressed over the following months,and as the Lawyers began to get more and more involved,the dirt started to get thrown by both sides.Janet stated to the Court that "as a Lady of birth,education,and fortune,she would not have formed a connection without a Marriage",and her Lawyer complained "of the relaxation of manners amongst young men of this age,and their passions for what they term 'conquests' ".
A Declaration that Angus made to the Court in April 1788 is very illuminating.He clarified that John Cameron,Janet's father,rented a part of the Kinlochleven Estate for £120 per annum,and that he (Angus) was an occasional overnight visitor to Callart before he enlisted in the Duke of Gordon's Regiment of Fencibles in 1778.The Regiment was disbanded in 1783,and he thereafter lived with his uncle in Glenco.He commenced again his overnight visits to Callart,but denied paying any attention to Janet,"or proposing any love or affection".He did however concede,that whilst staying at Callart,Janet would come into his room in the morning,as he was rising,and "lay on the bed with him cloathed,and kiss".Their last fling,he reported,was in the fields near her father's house in late August,or early September,1787.
Angus also clarified to the Court that he had purchased an Ensigncy in the 37th Regiment two years previous,but had not joined his Regiment in the Americas or West Indies.He had resided principally in Glenco,or in Corpach (north-west of Fort William).On being told by Janet that she was pregnant,he had been asked by her relatives to marry her,but he had refused.When Legal Action was threatened,Mr Cameron of Fassifern had suggested he pay her £500,but Angus objected to this proposal,as it would have been an admission of guilt.
Whilst it would seem obvious that Angus had behaved like a bit of a "cad",the Court was shocked to have been informed that,out of the blue,Janet had married a merchant in Glasgow,Duncan Gray.In her final Petition of 30 June 1788,she informed them that her new husband was burdened with debt,that Angus had reneged on everything that he had said to her,and that she would like a one-off payment of £500.The Court seems to have been less than impressed by her actions,and found Angus to be "Not Proven" of the charges against him (i.e.we know you are guilty,but we can't prove it).
And what happened to the unnamed child? Presumably raised by Janet and her new husband - but who knows?
Regards,Chris.
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Post by jjeonchapman on Oct 8, 2009 7:40:32 GMT -6
Hello Chris, Fascinating information indeed!! It is interesting that I know more about this 4x great-grandfather than I know about those in between. Perhaps they were better behaved, kept a lower profile, hence disappeared with greater ease into the mists of time. It has been said that the well-behaved seldom make history. Enseign Angus may not have been officially proven to be a cad, but he did prove himself to be very savvy in legal matters. His actions, however, must have made him extremely unpopular with his cousins.
As far as Seymour/Campbellford is concerned, I have some leads, but don't have access to the books that have been suggested. The American Antiquarian Society may have some interesting material about the pioneers of Ontario in their Canadian collection. When I get a chance, I'll try to spend some quality time there. It is clear, however, that the Ranny family played a key role in the settling of the area. There is a gorge named after Ranny with a pedestrian suspension bridge considered to be a challenge to all courageous souls. The town of Campbellford/Seymour has published several volumes about their history that I'd like to get my hands on.
That is quite a find that you made in locating those legal documents regarding Angus' supposed breach of promise! Thank you for sharing all that interesting information.
Regards,
Judy
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Post by robertscam on Oct 14, 2009 20:37:16 GMT -6
Wonderful stuff, Chris. Interestingly I see a contributed entry in the IGI for the marriage of one Janet Cameron and Duncan Gray on 11 April 1788! This would seem to be before the birth of her child.
I couldn't find any record of children's birth to the couple. I know the IGI isn't good for Glasgow, and I haven't paid money to Scotlandspeople for a look.
Bob
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penny
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Post by penny on Nov 14, 2009 0:01:27 GMT -6
Hi Chris Thank you so much for your reply, regarding my gt gt grandfather's 1908 letter. It is really exciting and a big breakthrough in my search for answers and verifying my gt gt grandfather’s (Alexander Cameron) story. I only checked the Message Centre today just in case…so that was a lovely surprise. In between my post and now, my husband and I have been to Scotland. Our daughter is presently living in Edinburgh so we took the opportunity and the three of us hired a car and took off for the Highlands. We drove on Wades military road to Blarachaorin , which still bears the same name. We visited the sites of the subsequent farms held by my gt gt grandfather’s family. I wanted to see and feel his country. The weather was kind and we saw the beauty of Glencoe and a little of Rannoch moor, and we lost our hearts along the way. My gt gt gt grandfather (Alexander’s father) was Duncan Cameron (tacksman and crofter) born 1769 and died 1857, buried on Eilean Munde, according to his death registration. He married Jane (Jean) Cameron. She is a puzzle herself, but perhaps that is another posting. However I ended up indexing the MIs from the book of tombstone inscriptions of Eilean Munde and didn’t find him, but that’s ok, he may be there or the loch was too rough so he may not. We went there, I can imagine it is pretty treacherous in rough weather. Duncan’s father was John Cameron and mother Flora McIntyre. I have this need to slot these people into the right place, which obviously is Blarachaorin, but I am hoping there is a record of them somewhere. My daughter has offered me 2 days of her leave (prior to Christmas) to undertake some research for me and I am hoping you can point us (actually her) in the right direction. Would the following would be helpful? 1. The Gordon papers at the National Archives of Scotland (Lochaber Estate) looking at the letters of the residents of the Blarachaorin. Do you know the reference for these? 2.. The papers you mention at the National Library of Scotland, (ref no. GD170/408) Do you have any further advice of where to look? Whatever she comes up with I promise I will share ) Thank you so much you do a fantastic job and I have learned so much reading your posts. Kind regards Penny
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Post by ChrisDoak on Nov 18, 2009 12:13:33 GMT -6
Hi Penny,
Glad to hear that you had an enjoyable trip to Glencoe and Lochaber.,and even managed to sail across to Eilean Munde (something that I have never done).I am sure that Duncan Cameron is buried there,but most likely in a family grave with no headstone - it was common just to mark a burial spot with a simple rock or chunk of stone.
With regard to the origins of Duncan's wife Jean,I have come across a description of Duncan as being "the son-in-law" of his fellow Tacksman Donald Cameron.As Donald was the brother of Duncan's father John,I believe,Jean must have been his cousin.
Good of your daughter to give up some of her time to do some research for you.She should be able to go to only one destination to look at the relevant papers - the National Archives of Scotland at the east end of Princes Street.She will need to take out a Reader's Ticket,so ask her to take along two passport-type photos,and some means of identification.
Here are the bundle references for relevent documents contained within the holdings of the Duke of Gordon:
-GD44/51/5/4.(Item no.35 should be of interest,dated 1762).
-GD44/25/9.(Item 17/9,dated 1809.).
-GD44/51/24/1.(Two unnumbered items dated 1809 and 1812).
-GD44/28/35.(Item no.90,dated 1821).
-GD44/25/8.(Item no.81,dated 1804).
-GD44/25/11.(Items 7,8,9,10,11,12,29,and 46,dated 1828).
She will be able to order copies of the documents,but I think it costs something like £2.50 a page.
With regard to the GD170 reference - the Campbell of Barcaldine Papers - in which there was a large collection of Cameron of Kinlochleven papers,I am afraid there is some bad news to report.When I was in the National Archives in September asking to see them,I was informed that only two weeks previous the legal owner had requested the return of the whole Collection (17.5 linear metres of shelved documents).I never realised they were only on loan - especially since they have been in the Archives for decades.In this very selfish action,they have also told the National Archives that they do not want their name or address released to the general public,as they do not want to be pestered by any researchers.So that is it - the biggest collection of Cameron of Kinlochleven papers potentially lost for ever.
Anyway,that is my grouse over.Hope your daughter enjoys the research,and hope she doesn't mind getting her hands dirty!
Regards,Chris.
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Post by Thomas Cameron on Nov 18, 2009 20:08:57 GMT -6
Chris,
I can completely understand a specific family wishing to physically reclaim their original papers. However, by not allowing for even a copy/scan of those documents to be retained, scores of researchers and those with links to Kinlochleven will be in the dark.
What amazes me is that there are Cameron of Kinlochleven descendants out there with enough interest to still care. Perhaps with some effort someone will be able to reach out to them, to work on a reasonable solution. Without question, the Clan Cameron Association would be willing to undertake a scanning initiative, even though the records are extensive.
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penny
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Post by penny on Nov 19, 2009 13:51:06 GMT -6
Hi Chris That is tragic news regarding the Campbell of Barcaldine Papers, it is a huge loss of historical information for us Kinlochleven Cameron descendents. As Thomas said, we will be left in the dark. It has certainly taken me years and years of hard slog research to get to this point of where my Camerons fit in. What on earth could be the reasons behind such a decision and wouldn't the records be safer at the Archives..... I could go on, but I won't. I would be happy to lend a hand in transcribing, indexing any scanned docs if we ever it got that far, but it doesn't look hopeful. Thank you for the following piece if information which is really helpful "With regard to the origins of Duncan's wife Jean,I have come across a description of Duncan as being "the son-in-law" of his fellow Tacksman Donald Cameron.As Donald was the brother of Duncan's father John,I believe,Jean must have been his cousin." I have been searching for the death registration of Jean for years through Scotlandspeople, 2 people (including daughter) have been to the Archives and Archives staff have also looked. According to the 1881 census she was living in Fort William with her granddaughter Barbara MacKay, she was aged 95 and was blind. I figured it would be so easy to find her death and therefore her parents NOT! I have looked for 10 years after 1881 and nothing. I have looked for Jean / Jane and then just anyone called Cameron male or female - still nothing. Barbara married in December of that year and went to Oban. I would have thought she would marry after Jean died as it would be hard to uplift a lady who is so old and blind, but just in case I extended my search for all of Scotland, still nothing. Jean's son was Minister of Kilmonivaig Church, but she is not buried there. The alternative being to look for a burial register .... almost impossible. After so many have tried and failed to find her death registration (her maiden name being Cameron also didn't help) I have decided she is alive and well and running a cake shop in Fort William. I went to the Fort William registration office but they could only offer me Scotlandspeople which of course I have done to death (excuse the pun). I was looking for the original death registration in case there was a transcription error, which is quite possible and the only explanation I can think of. But it doesn't seem possible to locate the original records. Do you have any clues where or how I could do this - where the originals would be and who I could contact? Can you tell this is a plawe from a deperate woman!! ) Many thanks for all you do and give. Penny
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penny
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Post by penny on Nov 20, 2009 16:00:10 GMT -6
Oops speaking of transcription errors - I should spell check my own typing rather than just throwing my fingers at the keyboard tee he. That last sentence should read "Can you tell this is the plea of a desperate woman!" Cheers Penny
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Post by SherbrookeJacobite on Nov 20, 2009 16:12:10 GMT -6
I just assemed that "plawe" was some Scots word that I hadn't heard before ;D
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Post by ChrisDoak on Nov 21, 2009 5:35:38 GMT -6
Hi Penny,
I personally don't understand how anyone can withdraw the Barcaldine Papers from the National Archives,especially since they were such a great source of genealogical information for all the clans and families living in the Appin area - not just Campbells and Camerons.It really annoys me too,as tens of thousands of pounds of public money have been spent on them over the years repairing and conserving them,and extensively cataloguing them.The catalogues have been removed from the National Archives,and all reference to the papers have been removed from the Online Catalogue.
Transcribing/copying the papers relating to the Camerons of Kinlochleven would be a useful exercise,though I am not convinced the person who now has them would allow it - especially as we might find it difficult to identify who they are.At least I have a detailed note of what Cameron of Kinlochleven papers are amongst the holding,(and detailed transcripts of some of them),and at some point in the future,I shall record them here.
Old ancestors disappearing of the face of the earth is a common problem,with no apparent Death Certificate.I am sure the death of Jean/Jane/Janet Cameron is recorded ,but you have correctly stated that mistakes can be made when transferring data to the electronic form.When I was last at Registery House in Edinburgh seven years ago,you were able to consult Microfiches of the actual Death entries.Whilst the staff were not happy for someone to do it,it was possible to scan your way through the Microfiches for a specific Parish,and for a specific year.I uncovered a number of ancestors this way,as their names had been wrongly listed on the electronic catalogue.With a bit of luck,you might still be able to do this - throw yourself at the mercy of the staff in the Registery House!
Regards,Chris.
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Post by robertscam on Nov 21, 2009 19:21:42 GMT -6
Might it help if we all got together and petitioned the Archives to ask the Barcaldine owner for access for copying, explaining the interest amongst Cameron researchers? Unfortunately the owner isn't going to see us complaining here.
Bob
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Post by jjeonchapman on Nov 24, 2009 20:59:25 GMT -6
I would certainly be eager to sign such a petition--at least once! What a terrible loss! I feel like my ancestors have been kidnapped but no ransom note was left. I mourn the ancestors I might have met through those records.
Grieving our loss,
Judy
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penny
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Post by penny on Nov 25, 2009 3:59:51 GMT -6
I am not sure a petition would help - I think there is a story here. Why would a member of a family whose records were in the archives for decades withdraw them? Surely this person is at least a generation or two on from the person who put them there in the first place. Are they going to start their own repository and then charge for access? Perhaps there is something there they don't want made public? Aren't they cutting off their own relatives - us, from knowing our ancestry? Who would have the capacity to house 17.5 linear metres if records.... not just any Cameron.... any ideas?
BTW - tried every variation of Cameron on Scotlandspeople in the weekend and Jean/Jane/Janet is still hiding. I do know from the OPR of her marriage she was of Corribeag - any ideas? I had narrowed her parentage down to Ewen Cameron and Mary McPhee, but without the death registration there is no proof.
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penny
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Post by penny on Nov 25, 2009 4:01:21 GMT -6
Oops, forgot to sign my name - I will get the hang of this soon I promise.. Penny
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Post by Thomas Cameron on Nov 25, 2009 18:06:25 GMT -6
Who would have the capacity to house 17.5 linear metres if records.... not just any Cameron.... any ideas? You're right not just any Cameron. They are the Campbell of Barcaldine papers, unless I'm mistaken. Chris, am I correct here? I'll save any commentary regarding the motivation here, but it is interesting that they are trying to build a new, dedicated library on the grounds at Inveraray Castle...
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Post by ChrisDoak on Nov 28, 2009 5:24:03 GMT -6
Hi Tom, I wasn't aware that an Archive of sorts was being built at Inveraray Castle,but from the jungle drums that I have heard,I can confirm that there is no connection with this development and the reclaimation of the Barcaldine Papers. The Cameron of Kinlochleven documents within the Campbell of Barcaldine Collection form only a lot less than 1% of the papers.Whilst the detailed catalogue of the Collection has been taken off the NAS Online Catalogue,most of it is recorded on the Ardchattan Parish historical website - www.benderloch.org.uk.The quickest way to access the catalogue is to google "angus cameron kinlochleven",and click on the www.benderloch.org.uk/forum entry about four or five listings down. Regards,Chris.
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penny
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Post by penny on Nov 28, 2009 15:58:54 GMT -6
Here is the link to the Inveraray Castle library www.inveraray-castle.com/Pages/content.asp?PageID=179And here is a wee exert: There has been a great deal of activity taking place at the Castle over the last couple of years, which has culminated in a major refurbishment programme. Part of this programme was requested by the British Government when I inherited the Castle in 2001, and this was the removal of the Campbell archives from the Jacob More Library (founded by the late Hugh P Moore, High Commissioner of Clan Campbell Society [North America] from 1988-1991) that was located on the top floor of the Castle. This was cared for and indeed created by the support of the CCS(NA) and the dedication and passion of Alastair Campbell of Airds and Rae MacGregor The move was required in order to protect this very valuable resource from future damage by fire, dampness etc, and to create better access for people who wish to study these documents. There is no mention of the Campbell of Barcaldine Collection, I wish there was. Thank heavens Chris that you have a detailed list of the Cameron papers amongst that collection and as you said, transcription of some. Regards, Penny
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